Common Council, Legal Committee

1. 0:33Good night, sir. >> Okay. So, this is the June meeting of the Legal Committee. Uh 6:00 p.m. June 18th. Uh roll call. We have Jenny, Jason, Margaret, uh waiting for Clark. Um And uh that's it. We can start. So, we have two items on the agenda this evening. Uh new business, we have um center lines on roadways. Jason has a number of things to present relating to that. Uh so, we will start with that. Okay. Is that a parallel That's the only parallel that's you and Jason from the Public Works Department. >> I'm going to ask Logan to start with some photos to help define what the problem um Just go to the next one that that gets started. This one's >> 81 >> Yeah. >> Okay.
2. 1:35>> All right. So, >> What's the address there? >> Uh 81 Green Street. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> These are the So, there's been a pattern. Um this this accident here I happened to witness myself. Um a teacher around the corner up near Fairview sent me a photo of his car. I'll show you in a minute. But, the white pickup truck on the right, um was just driving in the parking spaces of Green Street, ran into the back of that Jeep pickup truck, pushed it 25 ft, it hit the big pickup truck um on the left, moved that 10 ft. Um just straight into the back of it. And um that's the type of accident that's really intense. And what I found out about the other accidents that are similar, you can go to please 128 Green Street. You can see this is coming actually away
3. 2:40from Fairview in the other direction. There's actually a lot of center line, but there's no white lines. So, >> [clears throat] >> I didn't correct Margaret in the labeling of this, but >> [snorts] >> uh I'm headed towards not only wanting center lines, but white lines. And there's a couple of reasons, but you can see this is a very similar accident where someone has totally left the lane, they're driving in the parking lane, and they just completely crashed straight into the back of someone. And then the first picture that you showed, um is a little less dramatic. They caught the corner of it at 63 Green Street. Um it's more like half half on. Part of the reason I think we have this challenge is A, there's no lines. But, we do when we do opposite side parking, we often have one side of the street that's completely open. Um except for maybe one person who hasn't either is early, has forgot to move their car. Um and people get very used to driving
4. 3:44uh driving either in the breakdown lane or the parking lane, or they end up driving straight down the middle of the road. So, it increases our speeds because people aren't Could you show traffic and parking on Green Street, that image? So, here's an example. The The person on the right is parked up on the sidewalk because they've been working at Devereux House there. >> I'm sorry, what's this one called? >> Uh park parking and traffic and parking on Green. So, the the vehicle on the right, the white car, is parked up on the sidewalk because she's lost mirrors, she's lost >> I've seen that a lot on Green Street. >> Yeah. And then the one on the other side you see is driving 4 ft from the curb. Um that's actually a moving vehicle and is not in in what would be considered the lane. So, this is not the only Green Street is not the only street that's challenged with this. Um I did FOIA requests with the
5. 4:46um police department cuz that was the only way I could get the information. There was about 10 similar accidents over the past 5 years. Some on State, uh Prospect. Um And so, I don't know how we probably want to quite like the volume of the problem, but it's a problem because of the intensity of the accidents in my mind. So, um I did some research on the laws behind this. We can open up please the MUTCD. So, I've highlighted areas. Um The MUTCD is the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. It is a federal standard for um for these things, for lines and signs and things like that. It's picked up by the state of New York. They can't reduce it, they can only add to it, which they have. They have some laws that they add to it.
6. 5:49And um the first paragraph that's highlighted says uh that you shall have lines on roads with 6,000 vehicles a day or more. And you should have lines on roads that have 4,000 vehicles a day or more. It took me a while to figure that out, but they that's legalese. Shall means must, and should means it's a good idea. Um so you look at the Hudson roadways with 6,000 plus, please. The next the other um image. >> Yeah. >> Does it call it the Hudson Roadway count? >> Yep. Hudson roadways with 6,000 plus. So I've circled um you can see coming on on Worth Avenue. Uh Third Street, Green Street, Prospect Avenue, Fairview as well. I It doesn't have
7. 6:54the traffic count on this image, but Fairview is also um a high volume road. And interestingly enough, Columbia is not over 6,000. I'm not quite sure what what's happening there, but um I'm interested in starting a discussion on what approach we want to take to this. Um someone pointed out there's no MUTCD police running around checking your roadways, but uh if someone thinks about this correctly, it could be a legal issue for the city um for not having it. And it's I think it is a good idea, and I think we have I've shown that there is a problem. I have data on the I won't I have all the traffic accident reports that are applicable. Um so I think are few different ways we could go about this. I would like to start with the idea of Green, Prospect, Upper Warren. Again, Upper Warren doesn't have a number, but it has to be
8. 7:55over 6,000 because it's Worth Avenue on down and the basically the truck route. Third Street is a little weird because it has some lines and it's also off-center. But, I'd like to talk about whether somehow figuring a way to do Green, Prospect, and Upper Warren because Worth Avenue already has lines. And then, we could talk about >> [clears throat] >> the next level of whether we want to try to put something on the books to do >> Shoulds. >> Shoulds. Um like I said, I saw many accidents on State Street. Um with a similar issue. Um we could look at trying to add lines everywhere little by little. It is a budgetary thing. We do need to maintain lines. I'd like to talk about ways to add to I believe there's a $7,000 a year budget for painting. I know the mayor would like to see more crosswalks.
9. 8:57I'd like to find a way to increase that budget line item. >> Well, we could with PILOT. >> We could with PILOT. We'll talk about that next. So, do you guys have any as a committee? >> I have a question about the reservation on 128 Green Street. >> Yes. >> You have a photo of that one? Cuz this actually illustrates the issue. So, I do think that we need judgment and you and I have talked about it. And Green is particularly tricky because of the avenue. >> Yes. >> And it's tricky in terms of uh planter boxes or traffic um obstructions because coming around that curve people tend to drive in the center of the road. >> Can you speak up a little bit? Sorry. >> So, I I definitely think the yellow lines are needed um to divide the roads. However, this picture shows you a different problem, which is uh people driving in
10. 9:58what could be perceived as a parking lane. >> It is not a limited street. >> It's not marked such. >> Yeah. >> Um but they're driving in it. And even having a yellow line here didn't prevent that actually. That's a different problem. >> Yeah. >> And so, why that occurs on Green so much, I don't know. Because on Union we have a similar situation where you you can only park on one side of the street on on Union. And then below the courthouse you can park on both sides of the street. But I have never seen anyone driving in what is understood to be a the side that we park on. You know what I'm saying? >> Right. >> I I think so because there are so many more cars on Union that are parked, first of all, and second of all, you have to go slower especially on lower Union. >> Once you go below the courthouse you have to go.
11. 10:59But all I'm saying I'm just saying using this as an example cuz the yellow lines alone don't solve this >> Okay, they don't. >> And um on Green you can park on both sides of the street, correct? Except for the alternate side of the street lights. >> Yeah, which is every night. >> But right, but during the daytime you can >> The other The other thing that's unique about Green is much of it is commercial traffic. So, at nighttime Green is pretty open. >> Right. >> There can be like almost no cars parked. There'll be one or two in that >> Right. >> And so, people need to to it at night. People don't perceive that as a position that people park on Green. I think Green has a slightly different problem than some of the others cuz we don't really see that level of accident on the ocean. No, I think a little bit on State. Yes. State is similar. It's just not as big a road and it has more stop signs. Yeah. So, I think that I think in addition to the yellow line on Green there needs to be some demarcation also
12. 12:02>> I agree. >> parking side so that you have I don't know how wide the street is. >> It's plenty wide. So, it's 40. >> Is it wide enough to demarcate parking lane on both sides plus having lanes? >> Yeah, so it's a 40-ft road. There's two 8-ft for parking, that's 16. >> And still over 20. >> It's still over 20. >> No, so I think that I don't think yellow lines will be sufficient on Green. That's all I'm saying. >> I I think in general and I don't think we want to make spaces like like on Warren. I think it's just a >> No. >> Rob calls it a fog line which I've never really heard before, but >> The white line is where the fog line is. But, I mean, we could even just have something that's I don't know if it's legal, but maybe it's some kind of stencil that says "parking" on either side, you know. >> If you have the white line, I think it's fine. I mean, people understand it to be >> Sorry, can we hold for a moment? Is there a call-in? Has Ken been able to join them?
13. 13:03>> No. >> Uh is there a phone number that he can call in on? >> I can call my phone. I can call someone's phone. >> No, just a meeting ID. >> Um >> You can join us through the city calendar. >> Waiting for trouble walking in with Miss Paula. >> [clears throat] >> So, I'm just I'm I'm going to see if he wants me to call him. Put him on speaker. I'm on speaker. >> I know this isn't the same thing, but one of >> How many people are on speaker? >> Sure. >> I do you want me to just put you on speaker? Okay.
14. 14:10Yeah, you can Why don't Why don't you listen to it afterwards in that case? Um I can put you on speaker, but if uh >> I would not at all mind if you both Okay, fair enough. >> Yeah, you're Yeah, you're showing up. Let me hang up and see if you can hear. Sir Kenneth, can you hear us? Yep.
15. 15:15>> He just had to unmute himself. >> Yeah, you have to unmute yourself. >> He just had to unmute himself. >> I'm just I just put me on speaker. Let's just put you on speaker. I know. Hey, are you there? >> Yeah, I'm here. >> Okay. So, we just took a look at some of the photographs documentation that Jason presented with the language from the the better language that roads with 6K more or more child dividing lines. We looked at some accidents on Green Street. We were just discussing the fact that Green has some unique problems, but Green even with a yellow line down the middle still have accidents of cars driving in what really should be considered a parking lane,
16. 16:17but treated as driving lane until the picture that we were looking at was 128 Green, which shows our car being rear-ended by a car that was driving in what would ordinarily be considered a parking lane. And so, that's where the conversation is right now. Go ahead, Jenny. You have a reason to ask. Yes, private streets. Oh, no. These were all city streets. Um well, we're focused a lot with images are pretty much from Green, but one of the uh one of the one of the documents that we looked at is called Hudson um roadways with 6,000 plus. So, that So, that one shows Third Street, Worth Green, Prospect um >> That's a continuation of Green into Leverett. >> Yeah, so that highlights >> Do they have some of them already have >> Uh
17. 17:18Greenhaus lines some of the way. >> A very short. >> Very It's only partial line. Most of them do not have lines. >> Worthless lines. >> Yeah. Some of them do, some of them do not. And the idea here is uh should we be looking at um for the streets that meet the criteria that should have a line down the center. Uh should we be doing that and discussing with BEA a way to find funding to put in uh striping down the center of all any street of a 6K or more. >> Yeah, I think makes a lot of sense, you know. I mean, that's the standard and they're city streets you got control over. So, I I think that makes a lot of sense. So, um >> I I think there are streets that don't have 6,000. I do have concerns about I think >> Yeah. >> Upper Columbia and State are of a similar nature. Um so, I don't know as a council what we would want to do if we want to go that far. I like you know, we can start with 6,000 and talk. It's It's
18. 18:22all money. It's all >> Yeah, money. >> If well, if we pave the streets, we could say something about paving should include lines because it would get paid for by chips. Um >> It would be a pain. I don't know. If I'm saying that painting lines would be terribly expensive. >> We have a very We have a very limited budget for it. So, the issue with the issue with including it as a requirement when a street is paved is that chips money can be used for that. But, chips money cannot be used to renew something or redo something in less than 10 years. So, um it cannot be used to If for example, if you're not repaving Green, you can't use chip money to put in lines. So, we would have to Yeah. I don't I do not think so. I don't I don't that's the interpretation that we have. And we could do it on new paper roads, but then we couldn't refresh them using chips money. And we that's why we have a
19. 19:26separate budget for painting of crosswalks and stuff like that. It doesn't come out of chips. >> I believe that budget currently is annually $7,000. Um I mean, I think it's started doubling that would not be that hard to imagine. Um I we could ask for a budget from Rob what would it take to stripe Green Prospect Third and any of these that are marked Upper Warren I think is on the list. Um I think I would want to do more >> as many problems though. >> Who doesn't? >> Warren because I think they want to be challenged on Green because they're small streets. >> Well, I agree. Well >> Warren new streets it's predictable. You can see cars parked on both sides of the >> Well, I agree. There's one benefit to stripes. Another benefit is traffic calming. >> Oh, I think stripes are great. >> That's just saying >> as I go through the priority list things
20. 20:29that we absolutely won't do. >> Yeah. >> That's all I'm saying. >> Yeah, I would start my priority list and I everyone knows I live on Green Street. Be Green Prospect. Then I think I would go Warren because I think it has the volume. >> Yeah. >> But I'm also concerned about Upper Columbia near the hospital and State Street. >> Yes. >> But those that would be the priority list and maybe it's worth getting a budget. >> But that's that's our next step. Let's ask Rob what it would cost. >> Okay. >> I just want to say that I mean lines get done all the time. I don't know how you get all of our trucks that does it but I mean it's a mile down the street or half a mile or something doesn't seem like it would be that big of a budget but anyway that's a different question but I think you know what Jason put is probably a good thing here where there's a national standard that should be lined above 6,000 is probably something you want to be in compliance with that would probably be helpful in the case of an accident if anyone raised
21. 21:31that issue. So it probably is a wise thing to pursue. I think from a legal standpoint I don't see any impediments to doing it if it's a city street that you have control over and those are the standards. >> There there was another accident right where the near the rosary which is the 128 that and the the police would not send me the image of because it's pending investigation and on on green right where this right in front of the rosary the old rosary the flat road and that just happened three So I don't know what that really means from the police department as far as what the the pending legal issue is there but there is something going on with that. >> Yeah well Green is definitely the worst no question about that. >> Yeah. Um so if that's the start let's start with >> Can you talk with Robin about it? >> and we'll do it through the other committee. >> Yes exactly.
22. 22:32>> Um so thanks George. Thanks. What I wanted to add there my thoughts on Jenny did you have anything else to add because you started the discussion. >> Well the big problem we have is always the money and for three years I've been talking about pilot as a way to put money together for traffic calming for pedestrian safety for other things not just parking although that needs help too. Yeah. Um so I know it's not the same thing, but the the new um bike game the the the trail there I can't remember what it's called. In my neighborhood, my neighbors are very upset cuz there's no um there's no sidewalk. People are driving on it because nothing's >> What? Hampton >> Yes, the Hampton Boulevard. Thank you. And that also needs to be painted.
23. 23:37Just to differentiate it from the street because it's People are are thinking that it you're able to drive on it and they are. I actually saw the police park there one day. So, I just yeah. Yeah, there's more than one thing that needs to be painted. Just to keep you just safe. >> Yeah. But I think if we can find a way it'll be a part of this to keep a budget. >> The first thing is to get the ball rolling. >> Okay. Uh so now we're going any public comments from the audience? Any public comment on this? >> Um I would just say just the drivers if you have like 10 accidents in 2 years I mean are you rear-ending a car? So, what I don't know that you can hear the drivers. I don't know that drivers are going 60. You know, if you want to blame the one who was going 100, but 90% of drivers that's driving erratically. >> So, our next up agenda item is Jenny has
24. 24:44some documents ready to Hampton Boulevard parking. So, I don't know if anyone's talked to Jenny Eastern and run out to get her. >> I have all her documents. Have you been able to read them, anyone? >> Yeah, I've read all of them. >> Okay, great. Um The first document is a >> a local proposal which electronic name do you want to payment from the parking lot? >> Yeah. That's a proposal. Um within that proposal um I'll I won't read the whole thing, obviously. It's really long. Um I I put together a summary document. Um the city of Hudson faces increasing pressure to balance housing production, historic preservation, walkability, economic development, and parking demand. Many infill residential projects, adaptive reuse developments, and mixed-use buildings are constrained by small lots, historic building footprints, and limited opportunities to provide off-street parking. A payment in
25. 25:49lieu of parking program would allow developers to contribute fees when required parking cannot reasonably be provided. Funds would be dedicated to parking and mobility improvements. So, that goes to what we were just talking about as well as other things that we never have money for. Um So, I think I don't know where you guys want to start. I can talk a little bit about the history of uh parking minimums in the city. Um we had them at one time and the parking minimums were actually um for every building for every 300 square feet, you would provide one parking spot. That was the law. And um everyone was going to the ZBA asking to be let out of that because obviously we We don't have the kind of
26. 26:51land that other other places have and you can't build parking everywhere. Um also we just don't want parking everywhere. We don't want to make this into one giant parking lot. So, um I think this is a good a good way to gather the money. Um So, in 2019 they did away with all parking minimums. So, they didn't make any new laws, they didn't think about this in any way at all. They just said, "Okay, we're not having parking minimums." So, there's not a >> So, is that the first step is to bring back the >> Yeah. So, we would have to bring back something. Um and let me get to what I've suggested based on Sure. >> There's no service down there. Um but just as far as the legal questions here,
27. 27:53I mean a lot of this is policy stuff obviously. Um but then I I mean you certainly you know kind of talking requirements with respect to zoning but um we want to really pin down the authorization to do this the way it's being proposed of the state authorization. Is it makes somewhat of potentially analogous situation that I've encountered in towns which is when um developers can say um and then have requirements for recreational space in connection with developments. And they sometimes say in lieu of to putting in a housing development, either you got to put in recreational facilities or in lieu of that it's you can make a contribution. The towns can require a contribution for park purposes. But there are a lot of very specific requirements that will go along with that. Um, you know, there's a prerequisite that the town must have done a study and determined the need and it has to be commensurate with the with
28. 28:55the with established need through So, these are the kinds of legal questions that we I would think might come up in connection with something like this. Um, you know, I know you I saw you sent some examples of municipalities doing this. >> Yeah, I have a history of those. >> required with doing it or it may even require individualized authorization. So, um, >> If I can, uh, just just FYI, when the um, the the requirements that we had in place before that they were eliminated altogether, uh, the idea at that time was to send this back for new developments to send it back to the planning board and the planning board does in fact but they they have no guidelines as to what is reasonable. So, as part of the planning board authorization for development, one of the things they look at is parking requirements and whether or not they will meet the need of the development. But there there's no but there's no quantification, there's
29. 29:57no framework for them to look to. So, I think part of part of step one might be taking a look at what would be rational. >> Well, that's what I'm trying to see based on what >> Right. >> The two separate Yes, they're two separate issues. >> a lot of >> have the authority to have the statutory authority to do it and and to comply with whatever conditions or requirements might go along with that statutory authority. And that's why I was bringing up the one with the parks in the in the
30. 30:59towns it's commonly done. You can make them pay make a payment in lieu of building parks and recreational areas, but you can't just simply do it. There are a lot of things you must do in connection with it. And so that's one of the things we want to iron out. Make sure that it's authorized and if so how, you know, like And that's what I mean like Yeah. Um, those are the legal questions that I've run. The rest of it has been more question of policy and where it's going to go, but that would be my my initial area of focus. >> Well, I've kind of blueprint it almost all of that and then in researching other towns, I actually have phone calls and emails out to uh, I don't know what they they call themselves there. Uh, the village of Port Jefferson and Mount Kisco. Um, >> Yeah. >> to talk to them about what hurdles they had to go through in order to implement this. Um, but from what I've researched
31. 32:03they're they're doing it and they're doing it with great success. So >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> No, I I'm saying I get Those are the things that need to be investigated and I'm saying they're doing it, um, but it may it may be more than just simply putting it in the local code. That's what I'm saying. There may be there may be other things that are required from the state or that may be the >> Well, I'm giving an example of that that that we did recently was um, when we reduced the speed limit to 25 miles an hour. Um we were able to do that because we have maintenance and operation of all of the streets and there were no state streets. So we were able to do it across the board. However, there was a requirement that we get a traffic study by a traffic engineer in place in order to justify and looking at speeds and all this Jason and I worked on with the traffic engineer. Um we that was it was not a heavy lift, but
32. 33:05it was a requirement by the state that we have to do that. It Yeah, exactly. Thank you.
33. 34:26>> I'm about to leave you, I'm afraid. >> Okay. All right. >> Yeah, I've got to leave. Okay. It says that's a question involved, so I I I'll have to look at I'll look at the the basis for that. >> Okay, thanks, Tim. >> But >> So, I guess we can really just talk about this until I figure that out. >> I I'd like to talk about Um I always felt like the first thing that should come back would be the residential development. And I like the numbers that you have. Um I guess when I think of mixed-use slash retail slash, you know, >> Are you open to proposal? >> commercial? Yeah. On >> So, the reason I went with the 3,000 4,000 square feet is because >> [snorts] >> there are any buildings like and if you look at you go beyond Water Street there, any buildings that are like a um
34. 35:27>> Like >> a small business, they're going to be under 4,000 square feet. And that was part of the reason that they did away with parking minimums in the beginning because they didn't want to affect small businesses like little restaurants or whatever. >> Anything on Warren Street? >> Yeah. Those places, the whole buildings are like 3,000 square feet, you know? So, that's why I said over 4,000 square feet. When you look at >> Speaking of the the new grocery store that happens, >> Yeah. >> it would fit this. >> Yes. And also all of the hotels. >> Well, that's a hard one. >> Why is that a hard one? >> Because what I mean what Fourth and Warren, what's That's an example. Um Union Street Hotel. Those those are those are harder. >> I agree. >> That's all I'm pointing out. >> So, for example, some of the hotels that cater to visitors coming in on the train, >> Mhm. >> Um they don't necessarily need a parking space for every unit in the downtown. Um and just for everyone's memory,
35. 36:32uh one of the problems that we had with the parking laws before was that they included a num- a a parking space for every number of tabletops in a restaurant, which was a bit >> We're not adjusting anything like that. >> So I know you're not. I'm just providing some history. One of the reasons that like when they looked at it and it just wasn't realistic, that was one of the things that that kind of got into, let's get rid of this and just let the planning board decide what they should do. >> Yeah. >> So that was >> Well, that's not worked out very well and it's actually not making us any money and we need revenue in order to do these projects. So that's what I'm trying to do. >> Yeah. And I I love that residential one. I think that should be brought back immediately. I just wanted to talk about what um what level the commercial spaces would be at and I think um trying to address [snorts] Like I I think they they do create issues, but I'm not sure quite how to solve
36. 37:34something like I'm thinking of those two hotels at the moment. I know the maker has some. I don't know how you could compare what they have um created. What other things are in the pipeline? I know this >> There's the There's a hotel that's supposed to go in right across from 11 Warren, um which is a much larger hotel and they will not have any parking. >> Right. And I think that what I wanted to discuss is how do we or how do we address something like that? >> Well, if they would help us >> We just >> We put in a parking requirement like we did before. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I guess for everybody, I mean obviously we can't do this retroactively. I wish we could cuz 11 Warren would have to help us. Um but, you know, if we base it on square footage um or and/or how many employees a place has, whichever is greater, then we use that as the number of >> That's an interesting question,
37. 38:37too, is like it's essentially a remodel. Right? That if you were building like if if they build this um grocery store >> Yeah. >> even though it's on and I think I don't think they're keeping the building. So, that's really a new construction. >> No, they're keeping the building, Cass. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, they're keeping it. >> It's definitely getting modified. >> Yes. >> Um and square footage. >> But I think they're all addressing parking cuz they know that kind of a grocery store >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Um um their philosophy also on the new hotel is you can't operate a new hotel without adequate parking. >> Yeah. >> And so, they actually have parking. >> I I understand. I'm just trying to say like what what way do we require relative to that? Cuz a grocery store actually requires a lot of parking. >> Yes, it's possible. >> Um >> And it's one of the reasons why the plan to put a grocery store where our parking lot is now did not work out. >> Mhm. >> Because there was a uh independent grocer that was looking
38. 39:39at doing something there and because they could not get permission to put the parking lot right beside it, they didn't think it was viable. >> One could be an And there's another interesting case study is Old Hudson. Are they >> Well, they're not a hotel. >> Cuz they're expanding. >> No, that's that's not really a grocery store. That's people >> I know, but still it's still a commercial space and kind of fit to require. >> The reason I'm bringing up these other cases is that this was going to be fairly standard grocery store where people could do a weekly shop. >> Yeah. >> And they did not think they could run the business without parking and that was one of the reasons why the grocery store didn't work out there. >> Yeah, >> it probably does. >> This solves all of those problems. If someone were to, in lieu of the parking spaces, give us the money so that we could build more parking or build parking on already parking. Things where parking exists. >> I'm not saying this is a good idea. I'm just explaining something historical that we had related to that where a business decided they couldn't do business because they weren't permitted to do that.
39. 40:40>> And and I may ask you a question because I'm trying to decide in my own mind. I like the residential portion of this. Do you I know how you feel about this. As another committee member, how do you feel about the commercial portion of this? Is it strange to you? Is it >> I don't think you can have a uh one-size-fits-all thing based on square footage for commercial. I mean, you have to look at what type of commercial you have. >> Can you be more specific? >> I I will. So, for example, you cannot have a grocery store without providing adequate parking for people to park near where they're shopping so that they can load all their their vans. So, but honestly, even doing payment in zone parking would not have solved the problem for the grocery store to bring the merchandise. >> Right. [clears throat] >> Because the customers would not want to walk two blocks to parking, right? So, I think you have to look at the nature of the business, what kind of customers you're going to have, and is it something where you waiting is necessary that they be able to park
40. 41:43close. If you don't need to park then yes, uh being able to providing parking elsewhere would work. Then you have to look at context of the of the of the business. >> Yeah, but I I kind of feel the same way. That's why >> Okay, I can get you all of that. I've already done it. It's in a different document that I have. I can give it to you. I can give you broken down by business or whatever. I just thought this was simpler. And it was actually a little bit more fair than some of the more stringent things that were applied to specific businesses. So, but I can I can go back and get it all. Okay. Thank you. >> Do you think this is a two-step process, Margaret? Cuz >> Well, >> I mean, bringing back the requirements first and then and then the final >> Yeah, I I think it's we need to begin by trying to establish some reasonable requirements.
41. 42:45Um and then separate from that is uh if you can't meet these requirements, then uh you have to pay more, I would say. But I think if there are certain situations where you may not could be that you shouldn't be allowed to just pay for the parking. >> But I I think that's a good point. But because say say the other grocery store you know >> But I also think that business personal being a business where they know that really is sort of subsidized, they're not going to want to just pay a number of parking because their business would hurt. >> You think that, but I think some of the hotels have pushed that. >> Yeah, the hotels are slightly different, but yes, agree. >> I think a lot of the businesses would be willing to pay into it because it would help them in the long run. Because if we could afford nice things like you know some parking lots that didn't have giant holes in them and lines on the ground and actual signage, maybe some landscaping, or maybe a
42. 43:49shuttle bus that went from municipal parking lot to municipal parking lot and took people up and down the street, they wouldn't need to put in They could park their cars somewhere far away and then be shuttled in. We could also have nice crosswalks so that the people visiting here don't get hit, you know? I don't know. I'm just I feel like I've been talking about this for a very long time and every time I come back with a more enhanced version of what I've already done, I'm being told we need more. So just tell me what you really need and I'll put it together and I'll bring it back to you. >> So we'll keep this on the agenda for the next one. >> So it's specific businesses. That's what you want next. Okay. Got it. And I'll try and look into what the state would require if anything. >> Um uh Robin, do you have any ways comments? >> No. >> I mean public comment anyone? >> It's very interesting and it's a real
43. 44:52[clears throat] struggle that Mr. Park has had. meetings and a lot of effort and work went into this and Jimmy's got a very interesting idea. Um I'll touch on parking authorities, but first the whole payment in lieu of this payment in lieu of parking. I I imagine you would have to have like a project in mind where you're going to have all this additional parking and I can't So can I finish Let me finish my speaking my speaking engine unless you want to say something. >> Yeah, it relates directly to what you're talking about. There have been so many projects in this city two that are sticking out really hard core in my mind. They created real problems. >> I need to see from my envisioning this I would need to see that. Maybe I haven't >> 11 Warren >> Well, that was the travesty. >> And the pocketbook factory. There and also
44. 45:56if if Calvin had been successful in making his building and in filling it up, we'd have a real problem there, too. So, >> That's never been allowed in my thinking. 2019 [clears throat] then changed that. So, let me just finish my thought. Thank you. So, I would I hope that we would have some ultimate ideas. And if you have them, you just told me 3,000. I'm talking about what is the successful thing that you're going to build that's going to allow This is going to hold that capacity to hold all this additional parking. Is it 100 spots? Is it 200, 300, 5,000? I don't know. So, what are you envisioning saving all this money for? >> [clears throat] >> I I It's in my proposal. >> I lost my beautiful I'm just saying. So, just We need to know what the end result is. >> I I It's There's no dispute. >> I have one more point then I'll be done. I think if you really want to do something like this, you might consider something like a parking authority.
45. 46:58Where you can do bond issues and and things like that. So, this is a whole 'nother You know, and I really haven't doubled into this. This is just from a You know, what's the word? A casual view. >> Well, in the first part of our parking proposal from the parking committee, it says we're building we're creating a bureau in hopes that they will then make it into a parking authority. And that's kind of out of our hands now because there's nobody taking care of parking. >> Okay. >> No other hands raised, correct? And I have a motion to adjourn. >> Second. >> Adjourned. Thank you, everyone.

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