Historic Preservation Commission, Regular Meeting

1. 25:17Good morning, Duchess. I uh did you like the show? What did you think?
2. 27:20Yeah, I did.
3. 27:22It was good.
4. 27:22It was fun to watch. Ladies and gents,
5. 27:25uh we are ready at 10:02.
6. 27:30Jan, you're good online.
7. 27:32Uh yes, I have uh Commissioner uh Stein online. Hello. Good morning, Jeremy. Morning everybody.
8. 27:44Terrific. Good morning, Nick.
9. 27:48Uh he's he's muted right now, but
10. 27:51uh can we call the meeting?
11. 27:53Yes. Uh uh 10:03.
12. 27:56Yes. Uh so first up we have uh the review and vote on the draft minutes uh from the August 14th
13. 28:05meeting draft minutes.
14. 28:10We're looking for uh approval. Any nay votes? The minute approved. Thanks.
15. 28:18Uh and first up we have three quick uh CFA votes. Uh first up is 701. Let me just share it with everyone. That is uh the major tailor. Uh and that was uh the sign uh um it's a painted sign on the inside left wall of his uh retail establishment approximately 5t high by 4 feet wide. Um, majors Taylor signed sign.
16. 28:54Um, motion to approve. C, car, and you. All in favor? Are there any opposed? It's approved.
17. 29:02Okay. And next up, we have uh 40 uh 42. Uh, let me just show it to everybody.
18. 29:15Oh, Jan, one one thing just for the record. Everybody is attending either physically or online except Paul uh Paul Barrett month.
19. 29:24Okay. Thank you very much.
20. 29:25Sure.
21. 29:26Okay. Uh and this was for the uh this was 40 uh 42 North 6th Street. Uh this was the removal uh the woman the owner uh is removing the vinyl siding as you recall and she's restoring and repairing the underlying wood clap at 4042 North Sixth Street. A good thing.
22. 29:47A good name.
23. 29:49Motion to approve. Uh do we need a first and second? Hugh and Cara. All in favor? Uh no names. It's approved.
24. 29:58Okay. Thank you. And last up is uh 537. Let me share that. That is the uh Mexican radio project. Um and they had previously been approved a CFA that we had um approved. Um and they came back to us and they wanted to amend the the doors um that were inward swinging doors on the little pocket park side of Mexican radio, formerly known as Mexican radio
25. 30:32537 Warren.
26. 30:34Motion to approve you and Miranda. All in favor? Are any opposed to Brit?
27. 30:43Okay, thank you. Those are the C's of A votes. Um, and next up, we have three uh applications. First up is a fence application at 702704 Colombia. Is there anyone here in person or online to speak for 702704 Colombia? It's going twice. Uh they may come back in later.
28. 31:12Okay. Okay. H no one here. Okay. Uh we have uh 359 Columbia Street as a sign application.
29. 31:28Hi. Yes, I'm here. District 10 is here.
30. 31:39Yep. I'm here for the sign.
31. 31:41Okay.
32. 31:42Okay. Let me just put
33. 31:48Let's see. Columbia Street sign. Let me just open that for you. Uh this is
34. 31:54Jesus.
35. 32:01Uh yeah. So this is the sign. Would you like to tell us about your 34 in by 34 in singlesided MDO wood sign?
36. 32:10Yes. So, it's it's being installed I for a current business on 359 Columbia Street. Um, it's just a 34 by 34 uh singlesided MDO wood sign and it's going on a wall that I believe is 15 foot long and I think the code allows two square foot per linear foot. So, we are well under the sizing.
37. 32:35That looks great. Just a word on your sandwiches.
38. 32:39Yes.
39. 32:42Okay, they're good.
40. 32:44Yeah.
41. 32:44Uh motion to find the application complete. John and Miranda, all in favor? Motion to wave a public hearing and ask the city attorney to prepare a Cay. Uh Miranda and Andu. All in favor? Are there any votes?
42. 33:07Okay. And uh next up, a new CFA uh for 4550 East Allen Street. And I believe our applicant owners are here in person. And uh I'll bring up the application. Oh. Uh, hi Mary.
43. 33:33Would you like to uh tell us about your your application this morning?
44. 33:37Yeah, we want to replace our curved windows. We want to get rid of the swarm windows which you can see and uh replace the windows with um we're looking at windows and they are aluminum clay on the outside and on the inside. And those of you staff seems to work within start restrictions and we're going to do 11 windows. So downstairs and upstairs as well.
45. 34:12Okay. These are painted black or have a black fake finish.
46. 34:16It'll it'll have a white trim and then
47. 34:20when uh we intend to get our house painted next year. Uh but hopefully that white trim will match the white uh framing on your windows.
48. 34:31Yeah.
49. 34:31And what are the lights in? Is it is it two over two? Two panes in the top window and two.
50. 34:38No, they're just single panes. Single. Yeah.
51. 34:43And what what's in there now?
52. 34:46So the windows you're showing here are not those. So those are uh that's the type of win, but it's not going to have the divisions.
53. 34:57And right now you have one over one, right? Yeah. Okay.
54. 35:00I see. Got it. More clear.
55. 35:05Those are the storms.
56. 35:07Okay. There is a new one here, right? So thank you. Just check. Um there is a nuance which is this is part of duplex, right? And I don't remember I don't remember had a discussion about this. I mean this seems fine, right? But as you can see like we're going to replace the windows half the duplex. I don't know if this Have we ever dealt with anything like this before?
57. 35:32Probably.
58. 35:34Well,
59. 35:34I guess what I mean strikes me that when it comes up on this other half of the genlexics if it does you you know we would be inclined to match.
60. 35:43Well, except they're they're separate properties. I understand. Are there are they in the same order?
61. 35:49No.
62. 35:51They're totally within their rights to replace windows and these windows are finally place that we looking at appropriateness for this for the next replacement item. You want them to be matched or you would encourage them to match the use. I don't think the applic can control if the building needs reviews the application for the for the
63. 36:18all we can do is suggest uh
64. 36:20one question the smaller window on the second floor
65. 36:25we're going to read
66. 36:26has colored glass around the edge you're going to read that as a pocket window and we're going to leave that one because it seems like it would be too much trouble to replace that with something authentic. So what do you do?
67. 36:41Great.
68. 36:42Okay. Uh motion by the application complete. Hugh and Miranda. Motion to wave the public hearing. Ask the city attorney to prepare a C of a car and anyone else. All in favor? Are there any opposed? Approved. So, the process is uh this goes to the city attorney. Uh a onepage summary of what we you agree to do is in there. We sign it, stamp it, code's got it, and you're ready to rock. Uh that takes about two weeks.
69. 37:18Okay, great.
70. 37:18Thank you very much.
71. 37:21Thank you very much for coming.
72. 37:23Thank you.
73. 37:24Thank you.
74. 37:26Okay. Uh, and now we have some other business to discuss this morning. Uh, Chair Foreman, uh, the agenda is starts with Al Warren, but
75. 37:37yeah. No, let's get that out of the way as well. It's not it's it's a short story.
76. 37:42Okay.
77. 37:43Uh, I had written uh and was somewhat misinformed. It was a rather gentle note uh to the county basically suggesting uh that uh being in the historic district uh etc. And given that external work had actually started uh in the form of uh generators uh new staircase uh etc. that it would be appropriate for them to come in and review with us. I was definitely not clear that they had to. Uh my note was rather polite and whiny. Uh, Officer Fox followed up with a note
78. 38:32that was less polite and not whiny at all, saying you were required under 169 to come in and present uh to the preservation commission. Uh my understanding is uh as of this morning anyway uh I'm not aware uh he's got any response.
79. 38:59No, we haven't received a response from them yet. I'm sorry, Phil. Um I've emailed them twice. Um we haven't received a response. So we're having the city attorney reach out to their attorney um this week. Um he said he was going to give them a call and see if we can get them to follow up then.
80. 39:16Okay. That was going to be my recommendation. So Andy's calling otherwise you have me.
81. 39:21Uh we reached out to Andy Howard.
82. 39:24Uh he's attempting We shouldn't have to be in the position of begging. Uh they're in violation. Uh but uh people don't want to uh blow this up uh unnecessarily. So uh let's give it another two weeks. But the the process of getting the one years underway and we take it very seriously.
83. 39:56Uh that's 11.
84. 39:57Okay,
85. 39:58just an update.
86. 39:59Uh and next up we have uh 402 404 Morin Street. That is the Hudson Public uh hotel. not recording it. As you guys know, uh there's some issues with this. Uh
87. 40:18right. And
88. 40:22let let me finish my bit and you're on. Uh, Officer Fox prepared a very careful uh review of whatever term you want to use non-compliance and or violations of what we to in the on both properties. Uh the city attorney has advised me that uh you have no standing right now to uh even propose a revision to an existing application once the CFA is approved and furthermore not complied with. Uh so we do want to talk about both of these projects but just so the commissions understand
89. 41:13these do not have the standing of applications. They're just talking. We actually are going to require the applicants to come back with two new applications. Officer Fox, if you could go ahead and Jan put up on the screen uh perhaps uh your review, which I thought was very well done, of the violations on both properties.
90. 41:40Where do you want to start?
91. 41:42Um well, I'd like to start by making a statement, um if that's okay. Um because I' I've heard I've heard recent discussion regarding the Hudson Public Hotel at Forth and Warren and questions about the role of the Historic Preservation Commission when work does not conform to the approved certificate of appropriateness. I think it's important to clarify the respective roles of the commission and the code enforcement office. The Historic Preservation Commission's responsibility is to review the proposed work within the city's historic district, determine whether that work is appropriate under the city's historic preservation standards, and issue a
92. 42:20certificate of appropriateness when appropriate. Once that approval has been granted, enforcement is not the responsibility of the HPC. It is the responsibility of the code enforcement office to inspect the work and ensure that the construction is being performed in accordance with the certificate of appropriateness, the plans, the renderings, the materials, conditions and other representations upon which that approval was granted. When it is believed that work may deviate from those approvals, it is the code enforcement office responsibility to take the appropriate investigative action. It takes time to conduct these
93. 42:58investigations. We must thoroughly inspect the job site and the materials. Review the plans, renderings, materials list, review HPC minutes, uh conduct interviews, and if enough evidence has been gathered to confirm the terms have been violated, that's when the enforcement action is taken. Last week, there were two stop work orders issued on two separate projects because of the terms of the CFA from the Historic Preservation Commission were violated. One at the hotel at 402 Warren and one at 123 Union. When an applicant is in found in violation of chapter 169, the next course of action is for the applicant to return to the historic preservation commission and account for the work that differs from what was approved and explain why. The commission
94. 43:46can then determine whether any of the unapproved work unapproved changes are historically appropriate and may remain or whether the items must conform to what was originally approved and must be removed, replaced or repaired. But until that process is finished, no work will shall continue inside or outside these projects until it is decided if the noted discrepancies are acceptable or must be um fixed. The following completion following completion of that process, the code enforcement office will determine what further enforcement action is warranted including whether those violations should be referred for pro prosecution and issued the
95. 44:28applicable fees, fines, penalties, including imprisonment. To start this process in today's meeting, I will present my findings to each of for each of the projects and provide the applicant and the commission with a detailed list of those violations. The applicant must then reapply to the HPC with these changes and any other that may have not been noticed yet. Essentially, starting from the beginning, if the new materials that were installed without consent are not approved by the HPC, they must be removed and replaced with what is
96. 45:03because that process may take weeks or months. In the meantime, the only activity anyone should see at either of these sites is the removal of any fencing and construction barriers. With construction halted, there is no justification for continuing to inconvenience the public with barriers associated work that is not permitted to continue until further notice. Um so um we can start by um going over the presentation that I put together to show the findings that I've noted at 402 Warren Street.
97. 45:41Okay. Uh let me just uh share that please officer Fox with uh everybody
98. 45:54uh and I will just follow your lead. Uh
99. 46:00right. So uh this is uh so on March 24th, 2023, Walter Chadam on behalf of the Galvin Foundation was awarded a COA uh for 40244 Warren Street with a list of 10 conditions that were to be satisfied. Um those conditions um consisted of different things regarding coming back for approval for windows and doors. Um uh go on to the next one there, Jan.
100. 46:29Sure.
101. 46:30Um the applicant shall return to the Historic Preservation Commission for approval of specifications and details for all windows, doors, and light fixtures. The applicant shall also provide additional information on the existing storefront marble at the time the windows and doors are reviewed. You can go to the next slide, please.
102. 46:49Uh okay. Um the marble's missing. Um they did not come back for approval for that. And they also installed light fixtures that they did not come back for approval for them either. Next slide.
103. 47:06Um they also installed 95 windows that they never came back to get approval for.
104. 47:14Okay. Um as you can see, condition number 10. Um they agreed that corrugated metal will be unpainted um galvanized or ungalvanized metal. They went ahead and installed obviously painted black metal corrugated siding.
105. 47:36Next.
106. 47:37Next. Yep. Um and the door on Warren Street has been downsized. Um does not fit the original opening of it. um indicating that they have already selected the doors that they're going to put in there. Um they haven't come back to ask if they can change the size of the door um or let us know what doors are going in this building at all yet. Next slide. Um, so the conditions that have not been met or violations um that have been noted thus far at 40244 Warren
107. 48:14are the marble columns and beams that are completely missing and have been covered up um with a cement board. Uh there was a faux marble tile on site that it looked like they were getting ready to install that was a man-made porcelain tile with um a marble pattern kind of printed on it. Um they went ahead and installed seven gooseneck lights that hadn't been approved by the commission yet. Um 95 windows have been installed without approval from the commission. Uh they have started installing that black
108. 48:57painted corrugated metal siding. Um doors were never approved but at least one opening has been resized. So that's the violations that we've noted at 4024 Warren at this point. Um, I don't know what we want to do now. If the commission wants to have discussion on this before we move on or what. I hope you guys can't hear my dog whining here behind me.
109. 49:26Why don't you go into
110. 49:27He's got a He's got a lot to say, too.
111. 49:30Okay,
112. 49:31Nick, go do do the next one.
113. 49:33Okay.
114. 49:34Okay. That's going on to 123 Union.
115. 49:37Okay. Uh uh just a second, please. Okay. Can I ask a question for clarity?
116. 49:58Could you speak up, please?
117. 49:59Um, can I ask a question for clarity? Do I Nick, do either of these applications have site plans or are they just COAs that have been violated? We do have we
118. 50:14So is 402 in compliance with the site plan or is it just like is it is it in compliance with the site plan and just out of compliance with the COA because that'll I'm that has to be fixed before they even get to the historical society. So I'm asking
119. 50:27it's a Nick question.
120. 50:28Yeah, it's a Nick question. So are all the violations are related to obviously the COA, but what about the site plan? Are they in compliance? because I think they should go before the planning board first if they're not.
121. 50:40Um, I don't I don't know that they are. Um, as the HPC recalls, uh, the original renderings that were submitted to the HPC are the same ones that were submitted to the planning board, uh, where they had the Mansard roof on it and everything like that. So, it it's it's likely that they didn't go back to the planning board either. I'll have to confirm that um because obviously the masking of the building has changed since those original plans.
122. 51:10Exactly. My concern. So if that's the case um I would say that the HBC gets approved from this like planning board of amendment first. So you make sure that they're okay with the building structural changes and then have them come back here so you're not crossing each other. You approve it but then the building is not approved.
123. 51:29Um who would who would who would trigger that? commercial planning. Is that Nick?
124. 51:33So again,
125. 51:34I will I will take care of that.
126. 51:36Okay. Thanks, Nick.
127. 51:37Yeah, that'll be their decision if they like your
128. 51:45Okay. Uh, Officer Fox, would you like me to start on uh page one or two?
129. 51:51Um, yeah, let's start on page two for 123 Union Street. Um, so uh here's the plans here, the final set of plans. I wanted to point out that any of the windows that were on the plans with that E on it um represent existing windows that were to remain in this building. Um you can go ahead and move on to the next slide. Um so as you can see all of the front windows of this building have an E on them indicating that all of these windows were to stay. Next slide.
130. 52:20Um all of those windows have been replaced. You can tell by the stickers on all of the windows. Every window on the front is brand new, even the basement windows.
131. 52:32Okay, you can move on to the next one. Um, on our plans on the left here, you can see the two windows on the left have a number three on them. Um, because they were set to be replaced to match the existing four windows that were to remain on the right. Take note that these are 9 over9 windows. Uh the four on the right were supposed to remain the two on the left were supposed to become 9 over9 windows also. You can slide up to the next slide here.
132. 53:07So all of the windows were replaced here also um with 6 over6 not even the 90 over9 that they indicated that they were going to use. Furthermore, the window on the top of the deck there all the way to the left that was supposed to be a 909 has just become part of a brick wall at this point. You can go to the next uh now looking at the rear of the building. Um there are four windows that were supposed to remain existing. Um and one window on the bottom right that was a smaller window that was supposed to be
133. 53:43enlarged to match the rest. There's also no indication that any of the doors were going to be replaced. Slide up, please.
134. 53:55Um, our first problem is one of the windows um on the back has also been bricked right up and um no longer exists. On the right, the window that was supposed to be enlarged has also has actually been shrunken down because they must have ordered the wrong sized window and put trim in on the sides of it to try to make it fit. You can go ahead to the next slide. All three back doors that they never asked for approval for have been replaced um with something that doesn't
135. 54:32look historically appropriate in my opinion, but that's a matter of opinion and the commission's to decide. We had no east elevations provided. However, the floor plan indicates that all of the eastfacing windows were supposed to remain existing. You can go ahead and slide down when you are ready. Uh they went ahead and replaced all of them as you can see except for one. They did re uh leave in that big custom window on the bottom there. Um they also went ahead and installed in two wall-mounted heat
136. 55:15pumps. um one of which um is even blocking the uh the view of the one historical window uh they actually left in place. This is all viewable from the public view on the sidewalk also. So the violations noted at 123 Union Street are that they replaced 30 windows that were supposed to remain existing historic windows. Um, they removed and bricked up an opening where a historic existing window was supposed to remain. They removed an existing door and bricked up that opening where there was supposed to be a 9 over9 window installed to match the existing. They
137. 55:58replaced all of the historic 9 over9 windows um with new 6 over sixes. Uh the kitchen window that was supposed to be enlarged was actually made smaller. Uh they replaced all three exterior doors without approval and they mounted two heat pumps and line sets on the east side of the building without approval. That wraps up 123 Union as well.
138. 56:25Thank you, Nick.
139. 56:32Did Nick, did did you want to add any further comments or should I go back to the room? Um, no, I don't really have much else to say. Um, yeah, I think um it as as it's been stated by legal, um, it's going to be up to the applicant to return with an application or return um, the building to how it was before they made these modifications. Um just them submitting an application though does not automatically uh grant them an approval on this.
140. 57:07Understand? Thanks so much. Thank you for the work you did on this.
141. 57:14Thank you. Uh
142. 57:16so uh commissioners,
143. 57:18well I would first think that that it behooves us to thank officer Fox. It was an incredible thing of this level of thoroughess and and as as it's been pointed out by council and as we well know it's it's beyond our purview and our ability perhaps to even do this kind of assessment. So to have that to have to have him uh monitoring the output of our scenes of a is a a real boon to to Hudson and to um and to this commission and to the
144. 57:56public who you know who who is uh obviously has a vested interest in this work. So so that's really all I can say. I think there's, you know, we can discuss this. We can, but I don't see any point until the applicant comes back.
145. 58:12I I think it's pointless.
146. 58:14Uh there are way too many violations for us to keep track of. What I'm proposing uh to uh uh to Walter and Josh is that uh you create a new application for each that the application very carefully consider all the violations uh and propose a cure uh and we we we begin again with the process. submersible. But some of these things are not so easily cured. It may require uh new material. Uh plastic marble is not marble. So
147. 59:03yeah, it's not matter whatever
148. 59:09the details here. Let's let's skip all that. Uh you need to come back with new applications. Would it be possible to make, if I was quick, a presentation that touches on these five items on 402? I I defer you again, Walter. Uh I I I'm not trying to disrespect your your bank. Uh but it's too much information that we're not be we're not even able to do anything with. the at city attorney advised me that once uh uh CFA is put out, approved and enforced, the application itself is no longer a
149. 59:52guiding document in the same sense. It's a record. It's a reference point. But you have no standing here,
150. 1:00:01okay? until we see your application on both.
151. 1:00:04Okay. And legally it cannot be lifted the stop order cannot be lifted until you get a new COA. So if they don't modify it then the stop order stays until you cure the defects.
152. 1:00:17I do have a a hand from uh a comment from officer Fox.
153. 1:00:22Yes.
154. 1:00:23Um yes, Jan, I was actually just going to request that you share um the presentations with the commission and the applicants. Um, so everyone has a good list of uh exactly what is to be addressed at this point.
155. 1:00:38Okay. I will I will do the uh 4 402 404 and 123 with uh Walter and Josh.
156. 1:00:46Yes.
157. 1:00:47Yep.
158. 1:00:48Okay. I I'll do that as as soon as as the meeting is over. I'll do that.
159. 1:00:53Perfect.
160. 1:00:54Phil is some of these some of these alterations are irreversible. We cannot presume that there are known that these historic windows no longer exist. So I think I think it may if on the part before this application comes before us. That's obvious that's obviously an enormous aspect of both of these buildings it may behoove us to go and look and see what other historic preservation commissions have done when dealing with something like this. Obviously, you just decide that these new winners are appropriate, but you know what? What?
161. 1:01:28That's actually not what I was thinking, John. I was thinking nothing's irreversible. It's just money.
162. 1:01:36I No, that I didn't say we should approve these new windows. I'm just saying we should we it behooves us to start thinking about this before we react to the application on the fly. Agree. So,
163. 1:01:48but to your point, you know, they've had the cruise. It's like having, you know, it's kind of building. You can't just destroy something and then say, "Oh, well, I don't have it anymore. Therefore, there's no I'm not Please not trying to
164. 1:02:03saying it needs it merits thought. It does. It's not something that may merit thought beforehand. Often we are reacting to simpler problems. there there's no objection to thought which is I don't want to do anything today
165. 1:02:17uh until we have a chance to hear back from the applicant and and meet again.
166. 1:02:22Officer Fox.
167. 1:02:24Yeah. If those changes are irreversible, it's um likely that further enforcement action is going to have to be taken and they're probably going to be issued uh appearance tickets and have to pay fine uh for those irreversible changes. Um, so I I'd like to I need to know also when those irreversible changes were done. Um, when were the windows installed at 123 Union and 404 uh 402 Warren Street? Um, I I'd like to get an idea from the applicant when these modifications were made.
168. 1:03:03Yes.
169. 1:03:05Uh, any other business yet? Uh, I don't believe so. Uh, that's it.
170. 1:03:14Motion to adjurnn. Will you all in favor? Second.
171. 1:03:25All right. Um, and that concludes our meeting. Thank you all.
172. 1:03:32Thanks, Jeremy.
173. 1:03:33Bye, everybody. Thank you,
174. 1:03:34N. Yeah, great job. Thank you.

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